<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; ">OE-TSC minutes 26-May-2011</span><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: collapse; font-family: arial, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; "><div>
<br clear="all"><div>Attending: Tom, Khem, Koen, Richard, Mark</div><div>Apologies: Stefan</div><div>Sitting in on drums: Jefro</div><div><br></div><div>01) Meeting chair</div><div><br></div><div>Jefro</div><div><br></div>
<div>02) Ask for topics</div><div>RP - bitbake and override expansion</div><div><br></div><div>03) Action items from last week:</div><div>--> GNOME discussion to ml (all)</div><div>hasn't happened yet</div><div><br>
</div><div>--> release issues to ml, interest in 2011.06 (stefan)</div><div>not yet? didn't see it, Tom will start discussion soon if it doesn't appear</div><div>discussion here of bitbake, override expansion - take to ml</div>
<div><br></div><div>--> look at migrating bitbake mailing list (RP)</div><div>done</div><div><br></div><div>04) TSC structure, voting for members, etc.</div><div>still waiting on board</div><div>RP suggests a less formal IRC meeting weekly</div>
<div>discussion of role of the TSC and this meeting - becoming a SIG?</div><div>discussion of Yocto SIG vs. OE SIG</div><div>continue discussion</div><div><br></div><div>05) Status updates:</div><div> - oe-core</div>
<div><span style="white-space: pre-wrap; "> </span> meta-oe now has sytemd support</div><div> - contrib guidelines</div><div> - bsp guidelines</div><div> - metadata layer splitting</div><div> - infrastructure</div>
<div><span style="white-space: pre-wrap; "> </span> Tom King working with Linux Foundation, Jefro helping</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>Raw Transcript</div><div><br></div><div>(12:58:11 PM) fray: ha</div><div>(12:58:16 PM) Tartarus: Ha</div>
<div>(12:58:31 PM) Jefro: I'm taking roll call with "ha"s</div><div>(1:01:44 PM) koen: stefan sent his apologies iirc</div><div>(1:01:53 PM) Jefro: ah, ok - thanks</div><div>(1:02:06 PM) RP__: ha!</div><div>
(1:02:43 PM) Tartarus: 4 is a quorum yes?</div><div>(1:03:06 PM) fray: ya</div><div>(1:03:06 PM) Jefro: I believe so - do you guys want to wait a bit for khem?</div><div>(1:03:31 PM) RP__: I'd suggest we start at 5 past</div>
<div>(1:03:37 PM) Tartarus: As I said, I've gotta leave at half past for another meeting that came up this morning</div><div>(1:03:46 PM) Tartarus: but sure, 2 min</div><div>(1:03:49 PM) RP__: meantime we can decide on the chair</div>
<div>(1:04:12 PM) Jefro: what do you guys think of appointing a chair for 1 month or so? not that this takes up a large amount of time, but still</div><div>(1:04:24 PM) RP__: Jefro: I'm indifferent</div><div>(1:04:34 PM) ***RP__ volunteers if nobody else does</div>
<div>(1:04:39 PM) Jefro: RP__ did it last time</div><div>(1:04:48 PM) ***RP__ did do it last week but doesn't really mind</div><div>(1:04:55 PM) Jefro: I can take the duty if no one minds a non-voting member</div><div>
(1:05:11 PM) ***RP__ doesn't object</div><div>(1:05:17 PM) Tartarus: same</div><div>(1:05:24 PM) Jefro: ok</div><div>(1:05:47 PM) Jefro: then as chair I will move on to #2 and ask for any topics that didn't go out in last email</div>
<div>(1:06:04 PM) Jefro: <a href="http://pastebin.com/JADncdCV" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">http://pastebin.com/JADncdCV</a></div><div>(1:06:22 PM) Tartarus: nothing from me</div><div>(1:06:36 PM) Jefro: fray?</div>
<div>(1:06:40 PM) fray: yes, here</div><div>(1:06:44 PM) fray: sorry.. got interupted</div><div>(1:06:44 PM) Jefro: any new topics?</div><div>(1:06:51 PM) RP__: I don't have anything to add</div><div>(1:06:55 PM) fray: no i didn't see anything from what you sent out</div>
<div>(1:06:59 PM) RP__: ah, maybe one thing</div><div>(1:06:59 PM) Jefro: ok</div><div>(1:07:06 PM) RP__: bitbake and override expansion</div><div>(1:07:15 PM) Jefro: added. anything from koen?</div><div>(1:07:25 PM) koen: not really</div>
<div>(1:07:32 PM) Jefro: cool</div><div>(1:07:38 PM) Jefro: that "effective meeting" stuff actually works</div><div>(1:07:51 PM) Jefro: moving on to #3, action items - GNOME discussion to mailing list, did that happen?</div>
<div>(1:08:19 PM) RP__: not yet</div><div>(1:09:05 PM) Jefro: ok. stefan was to discuss interest in a 2011.06 release on the ml, did that happen?</div><div>(1:09:13 PM) ***RP__ doesn't know</div><div>(1:09:17 PM) Jefro: I didn't see it</div>
<div>(1:09:24 PM) ***RP__ did migrate the bitbake mailing list</div><div>(1:09:44 PM) Jefro: very cool</div><div>(1:09:56 PM) Jefro: do you want to now launch into discussing bitbake and override expansion?</div><div>(1:10:14 PM) Tartarus: Real quick</div>
<div>(1:10:32 PM) Tartarus: 2011.06 or so is something we have talked about doing before, but If it doesn't pop up on the ML soon</div><div>(1:10:36 PM) Tartarus: I'll try and start it</div><div>(1:10:47 PM) RP__: Tartarus: I think the feeling last week was there might not be a need</div>
<div>(1:10:53 PM) Tartarus: OK</div><div>(1:10:56 PM) RP__: Tartarus: but needs public discussion</div><div>(1:10:57 PM) Tartarus: I also need to read the minutes</div><div>(1:11:10 PM) ***Tartarus is still in un-bury mode</div>
<div>(1:11:12 PM) RP__: re: the override expansion, I just wanted to highlight the email on the oe-core list</div><div>(1:11:15 PM) koen: .03 is working well and time is better spent on oe-core</div><div>(1:11:28 PM) RP__: "[OE-core] RDEPENDS_${PN} and virtclass-native"</div>
<div>(1:11:35 PM) fray: ya.. if there is a desire for .06, it can/should be done.. but right now I see everything around oe-core and .03</div><div>(1:11:36 PM) ***RP__ agrees with koen</div><div>(1:11:56 PM) Tartarus: AI, I need to read the minutes of last week ;)</div>
<div>(1:11:58 PM) RP__: fwiw Yocto finds 6 month cycles to be better than 3 month ones</div><div>(1:12:13 PM) RP__: still too much to get done in 6 month ones</div><div>(1:12:30 PM) ***Jefro remembers 3-month release cycles at Cygnus back in early days, with a shudder</div>
<div>(1:12:32 PM) koen: the idea was to do lightweight releases</div><div>(1:12:48 PM) ***RP__ knows, I was just commenting</div><div>(1:12:58 PM) RP__: DId anyone read that thread I mentioned on the oe-core list?</div><div>
(1:13:09 PM) koen: I did</div><div>(1:13:26 PM) koen: and it went woosh over my head</div><div>(1:13:31 PM) RP__: The reason I ask is that we have some inconsistencies in what bitbake is doing and they hurt us and are likely going to stop us cleaning up native.bbclass</div>
<div>(1:13:47 PM) RP__: but if we change things there are backwards compatibility issies</div><div>(1:13:49 PM) Tartarus: I can imagine what's in it, i'll try and read it before the weekend</div><div>(1:14:04 PM) RP__: summary, each time you run d.update_data() the data store changes</div>
<div>(1:14:18 PM) RP__: when we expand overrides, we leave the original variable in place</div><div>(1:14:35 PM) koen: RP__: we're moving override order around anyway, so things have to get vetted anyway</div><div>(1:14:38 PM) RP__: I know Chris has run into this before, tried changing it to a rename and the world ended</div>
<div>(1:14:54 PM) fray: it makes me wonder if we should be using latest bitbake + .03 release..</div><div>(1:15:10 PM) RP__: koen: backwards compatibility with oe-dev is my big worry</div><div>(1:15:25 PM) RP__: options could include two code paths and a flag to switch between the,</div>
<div>(1:15:28 PM) RP__: them</div><div>(1:15:36 PM) Tartarus: At some point we will need to pause the old repo, imho</div><div>(1:15:47 PM) Tartarus: So maybe it's time for a 1.14.0/1.15.0</div><div>(1:15:54 PM) RP__: bitbake is meant to have a stable api</div>
<div>(1:15:55 PM) Tartarus: and 1.14.x is the EOL for old oe-dev</div><div>(1:16:30 PM) RP__: anyhow, I wanted to hightlight to people there is an issue looming on the horizon</div><div>(1:16:48 PM) RP__: if I need to explain the issue more I can do so but probably best on the mailing list</div>
<div>(1:17:02 PM) Tartarus: k</div><div>(1:17:23 PM) khem [~<a href="mailto:khem@99-57-141-118.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">khem@99-57-141-118.lightspeed.sntcca.sbcglobal.net</a>] entered the room.</div>
<div>(1:17:23 PM) mode (+v khem) by ChanServ</div><div>(1:17:31 PM) RP__: fwiw, the code in native.bbclass is horrible and shoudn't be needed</div><div>(1:17:33 PM) RP__: hi khem</div><div>(1:17:39 PM) khem: hi</div><div>
(1:17:47 PM) RP__: khem: we only have Tartarus for another 12 mins</div><div>(1:17:55 PM) khem: I am having connectivity problems</div><div>(1:17:55 PM) RP__: khem: so we've moving fast and have started</div><div>(1:18:00 PM) khem: sure</div>
<div>(1:18:15 PM) RP__: Jefro: time for 04?</div><div>(1:18:18 PM) Jefro: yes</div><div>(1:18:24 PM) RP__: khem: <a href="http://pastebin.com/JADncdCV" target="_blank" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 204); ">http://pastebin.com/JADncdCV</a></div>
<div>(1:18:30 PM) khem: thx</div><div>(1:18:37 PM) RP__: Jefro: perhaps you could explain what this means? :)</div><div>(1:19:05 PM) Jefro: first, I don't see any action items for the bitbake discussion - anything</div>
<div>(1:19:18 PM) RP__: Jefro: people to read the thread</div><div>(1:19:18 PM) Jefro: continue on mailing list?</div><div>(1:19:24 PM) RP__: Jefro: yes</div><div>(1:19:26 PM) Jefro: ok, noted</div><div>(1:19:54 PM) Jefro: for 04), there was discussion for the last two weeks on TSC structure, whether it would be an interest group or a hands-on group in the future</div>
<div>(1:20:08 PM) Jefro: I didn't see a final decision on that</div><div>(1:20:16 PM) koen: are we still waiting for the board to call for elections?</div><div>(1:20:33 PM) RP__: koen: memebership elections then there will be tsc vote</div>
<div>(1:20:37 PM) khem: yes i think</div><div>(1:20:41 PM) koen: iirc stefan was asking about election ordering as well</div><div>(1:20:58 PM) RP__: the thing that seemed to come out of the discussions was we could do with a time when interested parties get together on public irc and talk about issues</div>
<div>(1:21:15 PM) Jefro: I believe RP was going to contact the board to ask if they were planning to call for elections</div><div>(1:21:28 PM) RP__: Jefro: I did and the response was as above</div><div>(1:21:42 PM) Jefro: dang, all you guys type faster than me today</div>
<div>(1:21:45 PM) RP__: Order was clearly stated in the minutes of one of the early meetings</div><div>(1:21:56 PM) ***RP__ spends all day typing :/</div><div>(1:22:40 PM) Jefro: ok - membership elections won't happen until October IIRC, so punt this topic until then?</div>
<div>(1:22:43 PM) khem: yes I think it was starting with me</div><div>(1:22:48 PM) koen: the order was stated, but do we need to follow it?</div><div>(1:22:48 PM) RP__: Does anyone object to having a convention of slightly less formal and more public irc meeting once a week?</div>
<div>(1:22:59 PM) fray: ya.. we're going to have to leave it to the board.. there is nothing we can do..</div><div>(1:23:02 PM) koen: e.g. if someone really wants to give his seat</div><div>(1:23:03 PM) RP__: Jefro: no, membership vote is happening *now*</div>
<div>(1:23:04 PM) fray: (other then resign.. but that won't fix it)</div><div>(1:23:24 PM) fray: ahh ok</div><div>(1:23:31 PM) khem: RP__: what is this meeting about going to be</div><div>(1:23:34 PM) RP__: koen: if someone wants to give up their seat and volunteer that is fine</div>
<div>(1:23:34 PM) Jefro: RP__ ah, I see</div><div>(1:23:47 PM) khem: RP__: are we going to convert this meeting to the one you propose</div><div>(1:23:57 PM) RP__: khem: I'm raising that question</div><div>(1:24:15 PM) khem: sure idea sounds good to me</div>
<div>(1:24:17 PM) RP__: It would be more of an OE-Core interest group meeting</div><div>(1:24:50 PM) khem: yeah that will put it in better context</div><div>(1:25:09 PM) RP__: but I think some convention of a specific time would perhaps be helpful and we would likely get wider input which I think could be good</div>
<div>(1:25:14 PM) Jefro: are there things this TSC does other than oe-core that should be maintained?</div><div>(1:25:32 PM) khem: RP__: timing wise it could be a challange</div><div>(1:25:33 PM) RP__: The TSC would then meet less frequently and act as the ultimate tie breaker as original designed</div>
<div>(1:25:50 PM) RP__: TSC is still needed, just more in its original role</div><div>(1:25:56 PM) koen: RP__: the original design also said the tsc is proactive</div><div>(1:26:05 PM) RP__: khem: yes, that will be tricky</div>
<div>(1:26:08 PM) fray: I see the TSC still doing policy, guidelines, etc..</div><div>(1:26:12 PM) RP__: koen: well, it still can be :)</div><div>(1:26:12 PM) khem: RP__: I still think meeting TSC folks often keeps some directions flowing</div>
<div>(1:26:15 PM) khem: into project</div><div>(1:26:45 PM) RP__: in some ways these things should happen on the mailing lists more though</div><div>(1:26:58 PM) Jefro: RP__'s suggestion sounds reasonable from a community perspective. I'</div>
<div>(1:27:07 PM) Jefro: m not sure anyone reads the minutes from this meeting.</div><div>(1:27:13 PM) khem: I am ok with SIG meeting and taking TSC meetings as you suggest</div><div>(1:27:40 PM) koen: keep in mind that a SIG has no officia; power</div>
<div>(1:27:55 PM) khem: right</div><div>(1:28:00 PM) koen: it shouldn't matter much in oe-core, but still</div><div>(1:28:07 PM) khem: so TSC folks have to bring a different hat</div><div>(1:28:11 PM) Tartarus: My 2 cents before I have to run off</div>
<div>(1:28:29 PM) RP__: koen: I think as maintainers and major contributors, people do hold power</div><div>(1:28:31 PM) Tartarus: I like the direction we get in having a group of people that are interested meet and discuss things frequently and keep stuff on track</div>
<div>(1:28:50 PM) Tartarus: But I suspect we'll have some complaints about that being what the ML is for, which is also true</div><div>(1:29:02 PM) Tartarus: But if we don't have the meetings take too long, that should be fine</div>
<div>(1:29:04 PM) RP__: Tartarus: Mailing lists have a place, so do specific meetings</div><div>(1:29:17 PM) RP__: both provide a different kind of focus</div><div>(1:29:18 PM) Tartarus: a weekly chance to poke RP or myself and so on about something to make sure they don't forget is good</div>
<div>(1:29:21 PM) Jefro: Tartarus - do you think the complaints might be alleviated if the logs from online meetings are posted there?</div><div>(1:29:24 PM) Tartarus: We've all had stuff slip past before</div><div>(1:29:27 PM) khem: RP__: first I think a call to form SIG should be done</div>
<div>(1:30:06 PM) Tartarus left the room.</div><div>(1:31:15 PM) RP__: ok, so does someone want to make the call for the IG?</div><div>(1:31:56 PM) RP__: khem: sounds good to me</div><div>(1:31:59 PM) Jefro: and Tom's comments seemed positive to me, with some reservations</div>
<div>(1:32:06 PM) Jefro: any nays?</div><div>(1:32:13 PM) RP__: We can at least try this, see how it works out</div><div>(1:32:36 PM) Jefro: koen's opinion is the only one missing</div><div>(1:32:55 PM) koen: I have no strong opinion on it</div>
<div>(1:32:56 PM) fray: I support the creation of an IG</div><div>(1:33:18 PM) koen: but if we go with an IG, should we try to make it an official yocto IG?</div><div>(1:33:27 PM) koen: or am I a fw org charts behind?</div>
<div>(1:33:38 PM) khem: I dont think IG need's TSCs blessing anyone can start and IG. am I right ></div><div>(1:33:58 PM) RP__: khem: I think the TSC can comment that they support the idea</div><div>(1:34:08 PM) RP__: but anyone can attempt to start one</div>
<div>(1:34:20 PM) Jefro: my impression was that this is an OE interest group, not a Yocto interest group, but I could be mistaken. does OE have a process for starting an IG?</div><div>(1:34:25 PM) koen: oh, before I forget: meta-oe now has sytemd support</div>
<div>(1:34:38 PM) khem: koen: :) cool</div><div>(1:34:41 PM) RP__: koen: We could make it a Yocto IG if we wanted. Its an interesting point. Depends how OE and Yocto are going to position themselves relative to each other</div>
<div>(1:34:57 PM) RP__: Jefro: no policy, we get to make that up ;-)</div><div>(1:35:13 PM) RP__: I'd suggest it doesn't need a formal policy, it would just be a meeting convention</div><div>(1:35:18 PM) Jefro: RP__ lol - I'm asking because if it is a Yocto list, I have an action item :)</div>
<div>(1:35:29 PM) RP__: Jefro: true :)</div><div>(1:36:38 PM) koen: I wonder if we get an actual discussion for the new tsc votes</div><div>(1:36:43 PM) khem: btw, I had one item that I wanted to bring up was some funds donation to osuosl that Tom K brought up</div>
<div>(1:36:59 PM) koen: khem: did we get the new gbit switch?</div><div>(1:37:24 PM) Jefro: This is an interesting border case, as oe-core is the one component that is fully in both OE and Yocto</div><div>(1:37:25 PM) khem: koen: Tom did not get funds I think its still under decision</div>
<div>(1:37:49 PM) Jefro: I suggest staying on focus with the interest group until done, then moving on to infrrastructure (and I have a short update on that)</div><div>(1:38:09 PM) khem: Jefro: ok. I thought we were done with agenda</div>
<div>(1:38:23 PM) RP__: khem: I thought Tom was getting some funding?</div><div>(1:38:40 PM) khem: RP__: he is waiting on OE e.v.</div><div>(1:38:58 PM) Jefro: regarding infrastructure - I have been working with Tom K and Linux Foundation</div>
<div>(1:39:15 PM) Jefro: new servers are on the way, being donated through LF but the process takes a while</div><div>(1:39:17 PM) khem: Jefro: ok</div><div>(1:39:27 PM) fray: Something just came up.. I've got to leave.. sorry..</div>
<div>(1:39:34 PM) Jefro: fray seeya</div><div>(1:39:47 PM) RP__: fray: happens, ttfn :/</div><div>(1:40:09 PM) Jefro: LF is now in touch with Tom K and they are coordinating an eventual trip to OSU for Tom to set things up after they arrive</div>
<div>(1:40:26 PM) RP__: That is what I heard too :)</div><div>(1:40:32 PM) Jefro: My assumption is that 1/2 travel expenses are included, not sure about the switch.</div><div>(1:40:46 PM) Jefro: I'll be interested to hear how Tom does with pinging the community.</div>
<div>(1:41:47 PM) Jefro: that's all I know about infrastructure :) didn't mean to grind anything to a halt.</div><div>(1:46:23 PM) Jefro: officially I think this meeting is over, if anyone else needs to leave</div>
</div><div><br></div></span><br>-- <br>Jeff Osier-Mixon <a href="http://jefro.net/blog" target="_blank">http://jefro.net/blog</a><div>Yocto Project Community Manager @Intel <a href="http://yoctoproject.org" target="_blank">http://yoctoproject.org</a></div>
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